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Forum » AT-43 Discussions » AT-43 - Rules, inHouse Rules & FAQs » AT-43 Ability Query (Karman - Curtain of Flames!)
AT-43 Ability Query
BalrogDate: Sunday, 13-Nov-2011, 10:42 PM | Message # 1
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Hi Guys ... Pav & Banksi mentioned the "Curtain of Flames" ability the Karman - King Mammoth has ... Karman Armybook (Page 55) ...
    Curtain of flames: At the end of its movement, if it has not yet shot its light flamers, the King Mammoth can use the
    “Curtain of flames” ability. Units located in the shooting arc of its flamers cannot see the King Mammoth, nor the units hidden
    even partially by the vehicle.
What & how does this ability work?

I'm guessing it produces a wall of fire in a 180oC arc, upto the weapons max range (25cm) with the damage of 9/1 and that nothing can see through? So if a fighter passes through it, it suffers a 9/1 and a possible "grounded" effect as it's listed as an "indirect fire" weapon ... nasty all round!

I kid myself on that I'll actually get a battle against a Karman faction one day ... one day ... Thanks, Walts "The Inquisitor!"
 
zellakDate: Monday, 14-Nov-2011, 12:00 PM | Message # 2
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Quote (Balrog)
Curtain of flames: At the end of its movement, if it has not yet shot its light flamers, the King Mammoth can use the
“Curtain of flames” ability. Units located in the shooting arc of its flamers cannot see the King Mammoth, nor the units hidden
even partially by the vehicle.


The template used on Sunday is not mentioned.

The only mention of the shooting arc, relates to the position of the enemy relative to the KM.

There is no mention of damage done or effects inflicted inside the template ...as there is no mention of the template.

Added (14-Nov-2011, 12:00 PM)
---------------------------------------------
Vastatum says:
July 26, 2009 at 3:02 am
Curtain of Flames blocks line of sight of any unit that draws a line through the base of the King Mammoth to its target (including the mammoth itself). This does not work in reverse as Karman units behind the curtain can shoot through it at enemies. This essentially makes the king mammoth a line of sight blocking piece of cover.

Note that you can shoot the king mammoth on overwatch when it moves as your overwatch fires before it can engage its curtain of flames again.

Hope this helps.

Found this online....no mention of a template.


DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BalrogDate: Wednesday, 16-Nov-2011, 10:42 AM | Message # 3
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So, we know it blocks line-of-sight for anyone looking to spot the Karman's, but they can see through it, but what about the other cack I wrote?

Guess I'll have to PM the Karman players on this one! wink

I mean, lets be honest, fighters run over minefields, what's to stop them running through a curtain of flames ... my Red Blok boys are hard asses! They would enjoy the heat in such a cold place!!! tongue ... Walts
 
zellakDate: Thursday, 17-Nov-2011, 11:26 AM | Message # 4
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Hey Valts, did you get a PM/reply from the monkey-boys ?

They seem a bit hesitant to engage in debate. dry

Another thought.....if the template represents the "arc" then firers not in the actual template can shoot through it.

As although the shooter might be in the arc, he might not be on the template.

And what happens if a flamer is destroyed ?

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Thursday, 17-Nov-2011, 3:00 PM | Message # 5
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In truth I can see both point of view have some sense, there is no mention of template but the flamer does have range and an arc. it does mention anything is in cover if any part of it's base is behind the 180 degree arc of the KM base, this also is a large area. there is also no mention of enemy targets entering the curtain.

I suppose whats happened is the combination of 2 sets of rules to fill in the detail in the void of the actual Curtain of flames rules.

So i suppose another house rule may be i order to clarify this.

Suggestions as to how it might work would be good to start the debate... only sensible suggestions please.

Please bear in mind that this is one of the most expensive afv's in AT-43 and any rules that weaken it will have a major effect. What seems like a very powerful defense in using the template could in fact be part of the high cost of this afv.
Message edited by Banksi - Thursday, 17-Nov-2011, 3:06 PM

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
BalrogDate: Thursday, 17-Nov-2011, 10:04 PM | Message # 6
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Karman - Curtain of Flames?

Here's some idea's ...

    1] The "curtain" can be upto 25cm distance from the fighter;
    2] It has an arc of 180oC to the rear of the fighter, where the flamers are. They have a 180oC arc of fire;
    2a] The arc is reduced by a quarter for each missing/destroyed flamer ... there's 4 flamers;
    3] It has a depth of 25mm (that's thick for a curtain!);
    4] Any fighters passing through it suffer a single attack with a 9 Pen and 1 damage. "Indirect Fire" rule is ignored;
    5] Hidden LoS on the inside of the "curtain", but have LoS to shoot through;
... that should get the ball rolling! ... Walts
 
zellakDate: Friday, 18-Nov-2011, 0:30 AM | Message # 7
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imho, the template is complete nonsense.

The KM should be played by the rules as written.


Curtain of flames:

At the end of its movement, if it has not yet shot its light flamers, the King Mammoth can use the “Curtain of flames” ability.

Units located in the shooting arc of its flamers cannot see the King Mammoth, nor the units hidden even partially by the vehicle.


It would seem this is how other players interpreted it, and for me it seems to fit.

Look again at the interpretation of Vestatum.



Curtain of Flames blocks line of sight of any unit that draws a line through the base of the King Mammoth to its target (including the mammoth itself).

This does not work in reverse as Karman units behind the curtain can shoot through it at enemies.

This essentially makes the king mammoth a line of sight blocking piece of cover.

Note that you can shoot the king mammoth on overwatch when it moves as your overwatch fires before it can engage its curtain of flames again.


Can i draw your attention to the last word in the rules as written.

"nor the units hidden even partially by the vehicle."

If there was a template involved that last word would be template....not vehicle.
Message edited by zellak - Friday, 18-Nov-2011, 0:31 AM

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BalrogDate: Friday, 18-Nov-2011, 3:17 PM | Message # 8
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mmmmmmmm (I'm thinking, not eating a jam doughnut!) ... sooooo, ur saying NO template exists, and if fact the "curtain of flames" has no range from the BASE of the KM, it is the base of the KM that is the "curtain" boundary?

That could be a better interpretation of the rule than the cack I made up. Therefore, the "curtain" surrounds the KM (base) completely, offering 360oC to all the other Karman forces being spotted via LoS of the KM base? ... any thoughts from the Karman players?

It would explain why no range, damage/pen, etc, has been added to the ability's description. I think z (& Vestatum) could be right! ... Walts
 
BanksiDate: Saturday, 19-Nov-2011, 0:44 AM | Message # 9
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Here some food for thought,

The curtain of flame is based on the whole size of the vehicles front 180 degrees/ fwd arc and anything even partially behind the vehicleis is invisible whilst CoF is active.

Any enemy unit within close combat range of the fwd arc of the KM is hit (All of the unit) with a flamer rated hit i.e. Str 9

This would negate the need for a template and also reduces the range.

Note : this is a suggestion!

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
pavlovDate: Tuesday, 22-Nov-2011, 11:03 PM | Message # 10
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What if the arc of fire is 180 the range is upto 25cm but anywhere within the 25cm and covers a 4cm band and hits with a str 9, so it could be a big arc or could be a smaller arc if the range is reduced then it's still a "curtain of flame".

If this is adopted the cost of the km should be reduced since the effectiveness is reduced considerably .

again this is just a suggestion

Alan

Added (22-Nov-2011, 11:03 PM)
---------------------------------------------
Hi

Do any other players.... anywhere in the world use a template

Yes I do biggrin and so does Banksi biggrin :D .

Alan

Message edited by pavlov - Tuesday, 22-Nov-2011, 11:02 PM

There is f&*k all cool about 10+ civil engineers running around every battlefield
 
BanksiDate: Thursday, 24-Nov-2011, 10:15 PM | Message # 11
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Looks like either no one wants to talk about this or isn't bothered about it.

What happens next? Can we get some sort of agreement so we can close this off.

Perhaps a list of which parts are agreeable then discuss the rest...

comments please

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
pavlovDate: Thursday, 24-Nov-2011, 10:23 PM | Message # 12
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Hi

Follow the yellow brick road.

http://at-43.understairs.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=975

What about four flamer templates wide up to 25cm 9/1 which is almost the same as the width of the km.

Alan
Message edited by pavlov - Thursday, 24-Nov-2011, 10:27 PM

There is f&*k all cool about 10+ civil engineers running around every battlefield
 
BanksiDate: Thursday, 24-Nov-2011, 11:03 PM | Message # 13
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Ok,

Read the discussion and the rules for the KM again,

soooo...

A UNIT even partially behind the KM base is under cover... so if one figure or part of a vehicle is behind the base the WHOLE unit is protected, I can see why this negates the need for a template.
Still does not answer the question of enemy units entering flame... apart from the fact they couldn't attack cos they couldn't see it.

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Thursday, 24-Nov-2011, 11:14 PM | Message # 14
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Quote (Banksi)
Looks like either no one wants to talk about this or isn't bothered about it.


I have said pretty much all i want to on the subject....no need to beat the thing to death.

bye

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Thursday, 24-Nov-2011, 11:21 PM | Message # 15
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Quote (zellak)
I have said pretty much all i want to on the subject....no need to beat the thing to death.



what about my comment above?

Does that sound like a reasonable description of how it works?
Message edited by Banksi - Thursday, 24-Nov-2011, 11:31 PM

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Friday, 25-Nov-2011, 4:16 PM | Message # 16
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Quote (Banksi)
Does that sound like a reasonable description of how it works?


I agree enemies should not be able to attack in melee through the CoF as it blocks LOS.

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
pavlovDate: Friday, 25-Nov-2011, 7:13 PM | Message # 17
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Hi

We beat every other thing to death on this part of the forum why not this. biggrin

Alan

Added (25-Nov-2011, 7:13 PM)
---------------------------------------------
Hi

I would like to suggest a change to the rules, since you can "gift" point to others in the game could we have a whip round for a charter drop ship for walters Red Blok so thet can get a fight this turn. biggrin

Alan


There is f&*k all cool about 10+ civil engineers running around every battlefield
 
zellakDate: Friday, 25-Nov-2011, 7:30 PM | Message # 18
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Quote (pavlov)
could we have a whip round for a charter drop ship for walters Red Blok so they can get a fight this turn.


Fight with what ???....he still has not posted an army list ! tongue

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BalrogDate: Friday, 25-Nov-2011, 7:35 PM | Message # 19
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Quote (pavlov)
Added (25-Nov-2011, 7:13 PM)
---------------------------------------------
Hi

I would like to suggest a change to the rules, since you can "gift" point to others in the game could we have a whip round for a charter drop ship for walters Red Blok so thet can get a fight this turn.

Alan

Thanks AlanB! friends

But, to be honest, I know I could ask IanW for a lend of his Red Blok comrades and play some Non-Campaign games if I really wanted to get a game of AT-43. I've only had two games, so do need to get some game practice in soon, but I'd personally like ALL the old inHouse Rules sorted so I can focus on the game.

I'll be posting some more Q's tommo to get things rolling again, and look over the last posts for the couple of weeks I've missed. Been too busy at work & freelancing, so looking forward to switching off this weekend! blink yahoo blink ... Walts
 
CheDate: Friday, 25-Nov-2011, 9:43 PM | Message # 20
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M<essage deleted. Damn those commisars tongue
Message edited by Che - Friday, 25-Nov-2011, 9:50 PM

I never forget a face, but in your case I'm willing to make an exception - Groucho Marx.
 
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