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Forum » AT-43 Discussions » Damocles » Helicopters in AT-43
Helicopters in AT-43
zellakDate: Tuesday, 24-Apr-2012, 9:55 AM | Message # 1
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It might be better to write a new trooptype for helicopters.

Flyer. (generic transport) 250 AP

Can be bought in any AFV or vehicle slot. They have a 13 cm base.

Move 40 cm / morale 8 (nerves of steel for Therians/Cogs) / Armour 12 / CCD 6 / Transport 12 (Karman and Cog count as 2 each)

Weapons 2x MG for UNA/ ONi / RB .... Succubus Sonic cannon x2 for Therians...2x light drum cannon for Karman...you get the idea.

Ability : flight, can fly at high level , add 3 to the range shooting or being shot at, loss of propulsion at high level results in destruction.

Can shoot all round and troops can embark or disembark all round.

Added (24-Apr-2012, 9:55 AM)
---------------------------------------------
I fully expect this thread to get locked before we get anything constructive done playtesting wise....

but here we go anyway.

There has been some comments from some posters about the transport capacity being unfair to the Karmans.

Here are some numbers.

12 Krasny/ RPG Soldaty = 250 AP

12 UNA Startroopers = 250 AP

12 Arachne = 250 AP (Frostbite book)

6 Anakonga/ Kaptors = 380 AP

So the Karman variant will bring a heavier minimum payload to the battlefield.

And also it has the best guns.

For the same AP.


DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Tuesday, 24-Apr-2012, 12:03 PM | Message # 2
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Ok one point transferred from the other thread, all the other factions have max size units
, the karman isn't so they actually pay more for there troops ... 2 x 65pts = 130ap instead of 4 for 250ap.

The suggestion was that you used your original method and instead of troop numbers you simply say " a maximum size unit"

That removes any aparent biase against non human armies.

I think if right in saying 12 is a max size for a human army and this normally allows all the specialist/ heavy weapons to be used.

6 for non human armies doesnt allow for specialists/ heavy weapoons etc.

You can see where the karman and cogs are put at a disadvantage right way.

Another way to balance it would be to say,, no specialists/ heavy weapons allowed on helicopters.

Or

Allow karman/ Cogs to take full specialists/ heavy weapons with a squad of 6.

I don't think the full consequences of reducing the karmans unit had been thought through or perhaps it had... Nerf
Message edited by Banksi - Tuesday, 24-Apr-2012, 5:02 PM

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Tuesday, 24-Apr-2012, 11:12 PM | Message # 3
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Quote (Banksi)
instead of troop numbers you simply say " a maximum size unit"


So the Karmans would bring a ( 8 man) 500 AP unit onto the field ...against a (12 man) human 250 AP unit.

And that would be fair ? wacko

Having said that....if it gets shot down you lose twice the AP ! So maybe thats a balancing factor ????

Worth a try.

In order to make helicopters unique...and less likely to get shot down.

How about they have 3 Frame and 3 Propulsion (and 2 Weapons).

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
gerrywithaGDate: Tuesday, 24-Apr-2012, 11:39 PM | Message # 4
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With all the discussion about helicopters flying( pun intended!! biggrin ) around I have one question,

Can anybody tell me that the existing transport options for all the factions have actually been played /fielded sufficient times to support the claims that they don't do the job that they're supposed to do???

Stating that something is mince because the stats don't look to good isn't the same as actually using it and seeing how it actually fares in the game.

Just my humble opinion

Cheers

Gerry

And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
 
BanksiDate: Wednesday, 25-Apr-2012, 8:03 AM | Message # 5
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Quote (gerrywithaG)

Can anybody tell me that the existing transport options for all the factions have actually been played /fielded sufficient times to support the claims that they don't do the job that they're supposed to do???


I think that is an excellent point, until the Oni and Karmans came along and began using there transports on one else did.

As far as I know the UNA, RB and Therian transports from Frostbite have never been used, just the stats read and an opinions made.

The original suggestion for this helicopter model was as a proxy, which I'm sure on one has a problem with.

Whats that saying again... "If it's not broke don't try and fix it"
Message edited by Banksi - Wednesday, 25-Apr-2012, 8:04 AM

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Wednesday, 25-Apr-2012, 9:16 AM | Message # 6
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Quote (gerrywithaG)
Can anybody tell me that the existing transport options for all the factions have actually been played /fielded sufficient times to support the claims that they don't do the job that they're supposed to do???


I have seen or played enough games with the camel to know its a death trap.

i have seen / played enough games to know the BTR-5 is to slow to get the job done.

And i have seen / played enough games to know that taking a DK for a monkey force is a no-brainer.

But none of those things is really an issue for this thread.

As its about finding fair stats / points cost for a new unit......for those that want to add new units to the game.???

There are not a few AT-43 players who only want to play with the RAW (Rules as Written).

i am not one of them.....and i dont think all rules have to be fair to all armies in every situation.

Hence the helicopter guns are different, just to show the "racial" differences.

Some people might complain that the Karman version has better guns for the same points cost.

But so far everyone is happy with that fact. dry

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
gerrywithaGDate: Wednesday, 25-Apr-2012, 9:38 AM | Message # 7
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Apologies, I thought this was a follow on to the previous thread, though I am curious as to why you think the thread will get locked without any constructive thoughts.

On the troop capacity, which seems to be the biggest bone of contention, why not make the capacity a standard unit size and not the maximum for initial play testing and see how it goes from there?.

Cheers

Gerry

And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
 
zellakDate: Wednesday, 25-Apr-2012, 9:51 AM | Message # 8
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Quote (gerrywithaG)
On the troop capacity, which seems to be the biggest bone of contention, why not make the capacity a standard unit size and not the maximum for initial play testing and see how it goes from there?.


i am happy to go with that.

So new stats would be.

Flyer. (generic transport) 250 AP

Can be bought in any AFV or vehicle slot. Type X (Experimental)

They have a 13 cm base.

Move 40 cm / morale 8 (nerves of steel for Therians/Cogs) / Armour 12 / CCD 6 / Transport Capacity (a standard size unit)

Weapons 2x MG for UNA/ ONi / RB .... Succubus Sonic cannon x2 for Therians...2x light drum cannon for Karman.. Cogs unknown.!!!

Ability : flight, can fly at high level , add 3 to the range shooting or being shot at, loss of propulsion at high level results in destruction.

Can shoot all round and troops can embark or disembark all round.

Frame 3 / Propulsion 3 / Weapons 2
Message edited by zellak - Wednesday, 25-Apr-2012, 10:06 AM

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Wednesday, 25-Apr-2012, 12:44 PM | Message # 9
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Quote (zellak)
Ability : flight, can fly at high level , add 3 to the range shooting or being shot at, loss of propulsion at high level results in destruction.


I see a little problem if the helicopter is used in an assault move if it uses this rule, since it would have to land or be low to drop off troops, the same applies to picking up.

suggest this line be added " on the round it is picking up/dropping off troops it must declare this and the flight ability "high level" is removed for that round."

A check on the range +3 ... is it for both the helicopter firing and being fired at other fighters when at high level?

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
gerrywithaGDate: Wednesday, 25-Apr-2012, 12:50 PM | Message # 10
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Banksi,

This looks a very sensible suggestion to me

Cheers

Gerry

And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
 
BanksiDate: Wednesday, 25-Apr-2012, 1:33 PM | Message # 11
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Quote (zellak)
and i dont think all rules have to be fair to all armies in every situation.


We will have to agree to differ on this point.

If a new unit gives bonuses to certain factions then there must be a balance for the other factions.

if you don't and it's accepted, what would happen next would be another unit or rule would be created later and without meaning too another advantage added to the same faction.

then another

Eventually you get an army that no one can beat and no one can work out why.

BTW

Cogs

Quantum Mg x 2 Accuracy 5 Dice 4/1 - Str 7/1

Suggest Cogs Helicopters get repair due to the reduced troop amount (Some of there units start at 3's - Balance) also all there afv's get repair, just like the therians afv's get to use there routines.
Message edited by Banksi - Wednesday, 25-Apr-2012, 7:10 PM

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
gerrywithaGDate: Wednesday, 25-Apr-2012, 2:00 PM | Message # 12
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That seems reasonable to me although I'd maybe limit the ability to repair only frame/weapons or propulsion /weapons. The ability to repair all three seems a bit too generous given the fact that in real life a single bullet can down a chopper if it hits it in the wrong place

Cheers

Gerry

And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
 
BanksiDate: Wednesday, 25-Apr-2012, 7:10 PM | Message # 13
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On the karman model size, The Army book states that the humans, karmans etc are all size 2.

If we are using model size to judge what can fit inside Copter then the Therian bomb bots are larger that a human so a standard unit could not possibly fit inside the copter either.
They are approx the same size as the Karman models and they only get 4 models in.

We cant really use a rule for one model and not for the other models.

Speed

It might be an idea not to allow the copter to charge as the speed is amazing as it is. Also Therian copter should not be allowed to use the Dash routine.

A Helicopter is limited in it's flight speed (Something to do with the speed of the leading edge tip of the rotor blade) so we can take it that it always flies at max speed.
Message edited by Banksi - Wednesday, 25-Apr-2012, 9:47 PM

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
pavlovDate: Wednesday, 25-Apr-2012, 10:12 PM | Message # 14
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hi

Can we call the new karman helicopter "the giraffigator" , biggrin

Alan

There is f&*k all cool about 10+ civil engineers running around every battlefield
 
zellakDate: Wednesday, 25-Apr-2012, 11:16 PM | Message # 15
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Quote (Banksi)
Speed

It might be an idea not to allow the copter to charge as the speed is amazing as it is. Also Therian copter should not be allowed to use the Dash routine.


Better to change its speed rather than change the core rules....no ?

------------------
If it has a 40 cm move and by the rules a 50 cm rush move.

Thats why i picked it. !!!

So that would simulate a dash (routine) move (50 cm) , thus giving away one of the Therians main advantages to all other armies.

Added (25-Apr-2012, 11:16 PM)
---------------------------------------------

Quote (Banksi)
Cogs

Quantum Mg x 2 Accuracy 5 Dice 4/1 - Str 7/1

Suggest Cogs Helicopters get repair due to the reduced troop amount (Some of there units start at 3's - Balance) also all there afv's get repair, just like the therians afv's get to use there routines.


So nerves of steel / better gun / repair for Cogs.....sheesh tongue

What about the poor old UNA they are the kings of the air.

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
gerrywithaGDate: Thursday, 26-Apr-2012, 0:46 AM | Message # 16
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What about the poor old UNA they are the kings of the air.

Best thing for the UNA is to scrap this whole idea and only use the transports as listed in the books, or use the helicopters as you have suggested up to now without allowing all the extra stuff.

In my opinion the Therians have the dash routine to make up for the fact that they have no flying transports. To allow them the dash routine with the helicopters would seriously unhinge the whole idea. The biggest losers in this are the UNA and Red Blok as they currently have the advantage of having a flying transport and that gets wiped out by this.

Make no mistake, in my opinion this will have serious consequences for the game.

That said, it needs to be play tested to see how badly it'll affect the game

Cheers

Gerry

And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
 
BanksiDate: Thursday, 26-Apr-2012, 3:27 AM | Message # 17
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If you take a step back and look at whats going on here.

This is a Wyvern Golgoth by another name.

This has been designed purely to allow the Therains a flyer to transport bomb bots quickly across the table

There are only minor bonuses for other factions, because as Gerry points out most already have something in place that can do a similar job.

When it was suggested that the Karman could carry a max size squad a fuse was almost blown.

When the Cogs asked for repair it was too much.

NO, this is Helicopter designed for the Therians and the them only.

Lets just use the model as a proxy and be damned.
Message edited by Banksi - Thursday, 26-Apr-2012, 4:01 PM

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
pavlovDate: Thursday, 26-Apr-2012, 7:14 PM | Message # 18
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Hi

For wing commander hugh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7Si2H479Es

biggrin

Is this better, more in tune with the therian dash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAG11eworFU

biggrin
Message edited by pavlov - Thursday, 26-Apr-2012, 8:58 PM

There is f&*k all cool about 10+ civil engineers running around every battlefield
 
zellakDate: Thursday, 26-Apr-2012, 11:22 PM | Message # 19
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Flyer. (generic transport) 250 AP

Can be bought in any AFV or vehicle slot. Type X (Experimental)

They have a 13 cm base.

Move 40 cm / morale 8 (Therians/Cogs ; nerves of steel) / Armour 12 / CCD 6 / Transport Capacity (a standard size unit)

Weapons 2x MG for UNA/ ONi / RB .... Succubus Sonic cannon x2 for Therians...2x light drum cannon for Karman.. Cogs 2 x Quantum MG.

Ability : flight, can fly at high level , add 3 to the range shooting or being shot at, loss of propulsion at high level results in destruction.

On the round it is picking up/dropping off troops it must declare this and the flight ability "high level" is removed for that round."

Can shoot all round and troops can embark or disembark all round.

Therians may not transport Arachne by helicopter.

Frame 3 / Propulsion 3 / Weapons 2


Latest profile for playtesting.

(I would have liked the UNA to be allowed to transport any size of units....as they use airborne transport to the max in the fluff.)
Message edited by zellak - Thursday, 26-Apr-2012, 11:28 PM

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Friday, 27-Apr-2012, 3:21 AM | Message # 20
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Quote (zellak)
(I would have liked the UNA to be allowed to transport any size of units....as they use airborne transport to the max in the fluff.)



Since the UNA, RB and Karmans already have fliers in there arsenal, the helicopter (Flying) isnt as much of a bonus for them.

To counter this, my suggestion is the UNA, RB and Karmans can carry Max size units but all others can only carry standard sized units.

The difference is only 4 fighters, remembering the increased cost of these fighters and the danger of loosing them all is a greater gamble.

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
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