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Forum » AT-43 Discussions » Damocles » Helicopters in AT-43
Helicopters in AT-43
gerrywithaGDate: Friday, 27-Apr-2012, 9:03 AM | Message # 21
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I think that both the last two posts together might just make this workable. It seems a reasonable compromise where no one faction is getting an unfair advantage.

Cheers

Gerry

And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
 
zellakDate: Friday, 27-Apr-2012, 10:37 AM | Message # 22
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Quote (gerrywithaG)
I think that both the last two posts together might just make this workable. It seems a reasonable compromise where no one faction is getting an unfair advantage.


Although i said i would have liked the UNA to have been able to transport full size units.

I would also have liked the RB helicopter to have armour 13 (a +1)

And the Karman already have the best gun system. So dont require another boost.

So to me it would all have been even.

Giving them all a blanket transport upgrade would not be fair, as you said earlier, better to test it first with standard size units as the max size units could be a game breaker. (with one exception of course.... the UNA. happy ......as a control test.)

In order to balance the thing further, i am tempted to remove the nerves of steel from the Therians / Cogs....but its no great issue if you have to take a morale check if imobilised at high level....as you are dead anyway. biggrin

Having said all that..... i think its better left as it is...and test whats in green.

As helicopters are on a 13 cm base their use during Frostbite missions will be limited.
They would be better tested in more of an open field.
Maybe they way we used to play Damocles type games in the past.
Using grey cloth, buildings, toxic swamps and loads of containers and walls ?

Like wallethammer40K.

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Friday, 27-Apr-2012, 12:06 PM | Message # 23
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Quote (zellak)
And the Karman already have the best gun system. So dont require another boost.


Reducing the Karmans weaponry to a similar type as the UNA and RB, that would solve the issue, it is after all a transport not a gunship.

Choice 1- I suggest twin zz rifles 4 4 6/1 or twin jungle rifles 4 4/1 5/1, then the better weapon system cant be thrown in the karmans face.

I still say giving these 3 factions bonus (Max)troops makes up for the other 3 stealing their advantage(flying), the Therians routines, the Oni zombie makers and the Cogs type 1 afv building ability are their advantage.

Choice 2 - We could balance by saying

Therians units once transported by helicopter cannot use routines during the rest of the game.

Oni units cannot use Zombie guns with Helicopters.

The Cogs units cannot carry a A.I device within a Helicopter

We could then leave the transport at standard size units.


Added (27-Apr-2012, 12:06 PM)
---------------------------------------------
Quote (gerrywithaG)
I think that both the last two posts together might just make this workable. It seems a reasonable compromise where no one faction is getting an unfair advantage.


I think I've made it even more workable by choosing one the change above.
Message edited by Banksi - Friday, 27-Apr-2012, 12:29 PM

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Friday, 27-Apr-2012, 12:34 PM | Message # 24
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Quote (Banksi)
Reduced the Karmans weaponry to a similar type as the UNA and RB, that would solve the issue


Are you not worried that being able to transport a 500 AP 8 monkey unit will be a game breaker ?

I am.

The FB transports max out at 250 AP type 1s, giving maximum number of bodies for points spent.

UNA/ RB / Therian 150 AP for 8 men (Therian changes to 6 men if using Arachne pdf)

Karman 250 AP for 4 men.

I think they did that for a reason.

Giving the monkeys the ability to put an 8 strong unit anywhere on the table will be to much.

I dont think your idea is workable, no matter which gun is on the transport.

Added (27-Apr-2012, 12:34 PM)
---------------------------------------------
Sorry...but Choice 2 is not well thought out.

Its just a load of stuff to remember and looks like the kind of thing GW would do.


DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Friday, 27-Apr-2012, 3:25 PM | Message # 25
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Quote (zellak)


Are you not worried that being able to transport a 500 AP 8 monkey unit will be a game breaker ?



I'm more worried about a therian or cogs unit flying in and creating a type 1 afv.

or Oni zombie makers landing on top of me


Quote (zellak)
I dont think your idea is workable, no matter which gun is on the transport.


But the reason for not giving the karman 8 men was the gun on the helicopter, now it isn't, it's the 8 men, make up your mind!!!

your forgetting that the Karmans pay double the AP of the other factions for a max unit.

Are you saying the points system isn't right and paying double points for unit isn't a balancing factor?


Added (27-Apr-2012, 12:37 PM)
---------------------------------------------
Quote (zellak)
(Therian changes to 6 men if using Arachne pdf)


You said that bomb bots cannot be used in helicopters,
That one of the reasons I'm still in this discussion.

Added (27-Apr-2012, 1:08 PM)
---------------------------------------------
One more point

If a karman standard unit was is a dispute over an objective with say RB standard unit.

The karma unit is always going to loose as it has 1/2 the men, another disadvantage or advantage depending what side your on.

Even with a max size unit, it's only reduced slightly. either 4 v 8 or 8 v 12.

---------------------------------------------

Added (27-Apr-2012, 3:05 PM)
---------------------------------------------
It was mentioned that the Cogs wouldn't be allowed to repair helicopters, I take it that's the same for the Therians.

A Therian leader cannot use routines for the benefit of the Helicopter?

If this isnt the case and he can use his routines for the benefit of the Helicopter then the Therian helicopter is a game breaker.

No other faction has the powers the Therians have, it unbalances the helicopter totally.


Added (27-Apr-2012, 3:25 PM)
---------------------------------------------
I've just had a brain storm:

Lets even it up for everyone.

The Helicopter has no guns!!!

It has Armour 14.

it's a transport, lets make it that.

Then I think the only matter is the balance for Factions who dont have fliers in the Army book.

There must be a downside for them because this is giving them an advantage that they didn't have.

a couple of suggestions, only one of these listed would be picked:

1. The UNA, RB and Karmans copters move 60cm

2. The UNA, RB and Karmans copter has Armour 15

3. The UNA, RB and Karmans copter has max unit capacity (I know you don't like this)

4. The UNA, RB and Karmans copter can fly higher so is +4 to range.

I suggest that The UNA, RB and Karmans be able to pick one of the above to upgrade their copter.

On top of the list above , None of the army bonuses that the Therians, Cogs or Oni have can be added to the Copter.

E.g. Bonuses from Company choices, racial bonuses, Routines etc.

This is because The UNA, RB and Karmans as a rule don't have those bonuses.
Message edited by Banksi - Friday, 27-Apr-2012, 3:54 PM

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
NemesisDate: Friday, 27-Apr-2012, 4:07 PM | Message # 26
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Hi Folks,
am not getting involved in anymore topic discussions online ---(expect I'll just blow a fuse at club one day)--- but saw this and thought " this might be VERY USEFUL as a CAMEL"

" GZG73 VTOL armed troop transport " 28mm scale stargrunt from Daemonscape --- on e-bay right now for £9.99 +£2.60 p&p

What think???

Mark
 
BanksiDate: Friday, 27-Apr-2012, 4:40 PM | Message # 27
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Hi Mark,

I think Zellak has pointed out this one before

Good price

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
gerrywithaGDate: Friday, 27-Apr-2012, 7:30 PM | Message # 28
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[color=red]I've just had a brain storm:

Lets even it up for everyone.

The Helicopter has no guns!!!

It has Armour 14.

it's a transport, lets make it that.

Then I think the only matter is the balance for Factions who dont have fliers in the Army book.

There must be a downside for them because this is giving them an advantage that they didn't have.

a couple of suggestions, only one of these listed would be picked:

1. The UNA, RB and Karmans copters move 60cm

2. The UNA, RB and Karmans copter has Armour 15

3. The UNA, RB and Karmans copter has max unit capacity (I know you don't like this)

4. The UNA, RB and Karmans copter can fly higher so is +4 to range.

I suggest that The UNA, RB and Karmans be able to pick one of the above to upgrade their copter.

On top of the list above , None of the army bonuses that the Therians, Cogs or Oni have can be added to the Copter.

E.g. Bonuses from Company choices, racial bonuses, Routines etc.

This is because The UNA, RB and Karmans as a rule don't have those bonuses.[color=red]

I think that this is worth a look at to be honest

Cheers

Gerry
Message edited by gerrywithaG - Friday, 27-Apr-2012, 7:40 PM

And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
 
BanksiDate: Friday, 27-Apr-2012, 7:38 PM | Message # 29
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If any one else has any comments about the Helicopter please feel free to post them,

(Zellak and I are used to debating the creation of units, We worked on the GW forum for Epic Armageddon, so if we seem heated at times it's OK, it's nothing personal)

I'd like to know how everyone is feeling about it?

Please keep it a short note with as few swear words as possible
biggrin
Message edited by Banksi - Friday, 27-Apr-2012, 7:47 PM

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Saturday, 28-Apr-2012, 1:19 PM | Message # 30
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Quote (Banksi)
(Zellak and I are used to debating the creation of units, We worked on the GW forum for Epic Armageddon, so if we seem heated at times it's OK, it's nothing personal)


Agreed...we are old hands at this kind of thing. biggrin

I hope no one reading it is getting the wrong impression surprised ....Me and Banksi are old mates and enjoy a good debate. tongue

Added (28-Apr-2012, 1:19 PM)
---------------------------------------------
Armour 14 !!! for a helicopter.

You have to be joking. surprised

Looking back over these posts its clear you are not happy with the DK as it only carries 4 monkeys.

You want 8. with 14 Armour !!!

You dont want a helicopter ....you want a dropship.

So i have an idea.

Lets not do stats for a generic helicopter.

Start a new thread for a dropship and we can start again from scratch.

Whats the point in buying / building proxies for transports that no one wants. ??????

So to finish off the Red Blok helicopter.

Flyer. 250 AP

Can be bought in any AFV or vehicle slot. Type X (Experimental)

They have a 13 cm base.

Move 40 cm / morale 8 / Armour 12 / CCD 6 / Transport Capacity (a standard size unit)

Weapons 3 x MG (just noticed, the model has 3 machineguns)

Ability : flight, can fly at high level , add 3 to the range shooting or being shot at, loss of propulsion at high level results in destruction.

On the round it is picking up/dropping off troops it must declare this and the flight ability "high level" is removed for that round."

Can shoot all round and troops can embark or disembark all round.

Frame 3 / Propulsion 3 / Weapons 1 (triple mg)
Message edited by zellak - Saturday, 28-Apr-2012, 6:19 PM

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
gerrywithaGDate: Saturday, 28-Apr-2012, 1:51 PM | Message # 31
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[color=red]Weapons 4 x MG ??[color=red]

Too much in my opinion if they're allowed to fire in one direction. That's the firepower of a gunship not a helicopter.

Maybe limit it to 2 forward firing and 2 rear firing?

Cheers

Gerry

Added (28-Apr-2012, 1:51 PM)
---------------------------------------------
[color=red]Armour 12??[color=red]

Think that the armour is too good. Helicopter is trading armour for speed. This actually has better armour than the Soundouk and goes twice as fast as well for 25 points less and has 3 MG's against the 2MG's that the Soundouk has. The Soundouk is MAPC, the helicopter is not

Doesn't make any sense to me

Cheers

Gerry


And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
 
zellakDate: Saturday, 28-Apr-2012, 6:01 PM | Message # 32
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All the stats were starting points for discussion.

Why did i pick 12 for armour you ask ?

Although small arms can shoot down aircraft....this is very rare.

So.... as most small arms carried in AT-43 are around penetration 4 to 6. and penetration is impossible at 6 armour points higher than the penetration value.

I picked 12 armour.

It would be posssible to reduce the armour to 11, this giving some Karman and Therian trooptypes the ability to shoot down the helicopter with small arms.

ps... i changed the Weapons to 1 (a triple MG) so one hit knocks out all three guns.
Message edited by zellak - Saturday, 28-Apr-2012, 6:21 PM

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
gerrywithaGDate: Saturday, 28-Apr-2012, 6:28 PM | Message # 33
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I appreciate the stats were starting points but given the fact that transports tend to be less armoured than gunships/apcs to enable them to move in and out quickly, armour 11 is still way too generous. I'm thinking somewhere around 9 for the RB one and 8 for the UNA one to be honest.

As an example the only armour on a Huey in Vietnam was the base of the seat that the pilot sat on.

If reducing the armour isn't an option then maybe a reduction in speed is in order then

Or if transporting troops any hits received get split between the chopper and the troops it's carrying???

Cheers

Gerry

And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
 
BanksiDate: Saturday, 28-Apr-2012, 9:21 PM | Message # 34
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Quote (zellak)

Looking back over these posts its clear you are not happy with the DK as it only carries 4 monkeys.

You want 8. with 14 Armour !!!

You dont want a helicopter ....you want a dropship.


I don't want any more created units!!!!!!!

I'm actually I'm quite happy with the DK, All I want is for the Karman to be allowed the same as everyone else and the Copter to be fair for all factions

If The copter only carries 4 then it's of no interest to the Karmans because they have something that is adequate atm.

The Therians routines if add to the Copter take it out of the fair category and in my opinion break the unit.

Also and I know I've already stated this, if a faction hasn't had a flyer before there should be a penalty for those factions to use one.


Added (28-Apr-2012, 8:50 PM)
---------------------------------------------
Quote (Banksi)

a couple of suggestions, only one of these listed would be picked:

1. The UNA, RB and Karmans copters move 60cm

2. The UNA, RB and Karmans copter has Armour 15

3. The UNA, RB and Karmans copter has max unit capacity (I know you don't like this)

4. The UNA, RB and Karmans copter can fly higher so is +4 to range.

I suggest that The UNA, RB and Karmans be able to pick one of the above to upgrade their copter.

On top of the list above , None of the army bonuses that the Therians, Cogs or Oni have can be added to the Copter.

E.g. Bonuses from Company choices, racial bonuses, Routines etc.



This was my suggestion only one of the above would be added to the copters stats, the choice would be for the player so each faction could be different

I don't think any of the racial bonuses should be added to the copter, I think thats the only way to make it fair.

This is because The UNA, RB and Karmans as a rule don't have those bonuses.



Added (28-Apr-2012, 9:21 PM)
---------------------------------------------
One thing to point out these ARE suggestions but I do think that UNA, RB & Karman should get a bonus for allowing the other faction access to flyers.
Message edited by Banksi - Saturday, 28-Apr-2012, 9:22 PM

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Sunday, 29-Apr-2012, 9:05 AM | Message # 35
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Quote (Banksi)
I don't want any more created units!!!!!!!


If Che wants to buy a Dust helicopter then i have no problems with that, and will allow its use during play.

So i am running a few ideas past people to see what they think.

But at the end of the day, some people might decide they will only play the RAW and allow nothing new....that is up to them.

<<<<<<<<<<<shrugs>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Added (29-Apr-2012, 8:30 AM)
---------------------------------------------
So .....latest incarnation. biggrin

Bashkir 43 (Red Blok helicopter)

Flyer. 250 AP

Can be bought in any AFV or vehicle slot. Type X (Experimental)

They have a 13 cm base.

Move 60 cm / morale 8 / Armour 9 / CCD 3 / Transport Capacity (a standard size unit)

Weapons : triple MG (just noticed, the model has 3 machineguns)

Ability : flight, can fly at high level , add 3 to the range shooting or being shot at, loss of propulsion at high level results in destruction.

On the round it is picking up/dropping off troops it must declare this and the flight ability "high level" is removed for that round."

Can shoot only in its front arc.

Frame 3 / Propulsion 3 / Weapons 1 (triple MG)


Triple MG stats to be arranged at the table.

There are to many variables to do a generic helicopter.

So this one will do for playtesting the RB one ...and then we will see.

I dont think the Therians would use helicopters, a bit to low tech.
Therians AFAIK are the only side that uses teleportation.
And thats prolly the way Rackham would have developed them.....Or dropships. cool

Added (29-Apr-2012, 9:05 AM)
---------------------------------------------
Quote (gerrywithaG)
As an example the only armour on a Huey in Vietnam was the base of the seat that the pilot sat on.

If reducing the armour isn't an option then maybe a reduction in speed is in order then

Or if transporting troops any hits received get split between the chopper and the troops it's carrying???

Hi Gerry,

Helicopters can take a lot of rifle fire and not get shot down.

Its usually heavy weapons that get them, not small arms.

However, i have dropped the armour and upped the speed....to be of use on a 4' x 4' table. happy

And changed the arc of fire.

Do we really need rules for injuring passengers ???? Better to keep it simple and not change this.
Message edited by zellak - Sunday, 29-Apr-2012, 9:07 AM

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Sunday, 29-Apr-2012, 9:56 PM | Message # 36
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Can I check my understanding of the helicopter as it stands.

It went from an AFV that everyone could use with variations for each faction!

To a RB only unit?

Well if that's the case I think the Copter model should just be used as a proxy for the Sounduk.

I thought we were giving access to flyers for the factions who didn't already have any!

I wish I knew what the objective is and can we please stick to it!!!!!

Added (29-Apr-2012, 9:56 PM)
---------------------------------------------

Quote (Banksi)
Therians AFAIK are the only side that uses teleportation.


Surely it's only one leader who can use Teleportation??

I mean if any other unit was given it the AP cost for that would at least double!!!!

That and a high % of it failing
Message edited by Banksi - Sunday, 29-Apr-2012, 9:13 PM

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Monday, 30-Apr-2012, 6:00 PM | Message # 37
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Given the level of resistance to the Therians having night vision.....it would be a waste of bandwidth to debate teleportation. dry

And the Red Blok helicopter is also moot, as there is now no interest in the thing due to the level of conflict on this thread.

Och well. sad

<<<<<<<<<<<< SHRUGS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Of course......Airfix have just brought out a 1/48 scale (28mm) westland lynx .....for the ONi cool
Message edited by zellak - Monday, 30-Apr-2012, 6:06 PM

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
CheDate: Monday, 30-Apr-2012, 8:07 PM | Message # 38
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Why don't we stop playing AT-43, create a new game and use the AT-43 figures? Oops, sorry wacko

Wargamers like to paint their privates!!
 
zellakDate: Monday, 30-Apr-2012, 10:20 PM | Message # 39
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Yeah....seen Tomorrow War wink

http://littlewarsva.blogspot.co.uk/2012....ad.html
Message edited by zellak - Tuesday, 01-May-2012, 4:14 PM

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
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