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New AT-43 Campaign
BanksiDate: Tuesday, 28-Jun-2011, 1:15 PM | Message # 41
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Quote (zellak)
Not exactly free...375 points is a bit heavy. For ONI medium enforcer.



It's not the Tank/APC I'm saying is free, it's the ability. If it's not on the Army list as an ability then I think it cant happen.

I'd like Karman to have all units to fight to the last man before taking moral but that not on their list so I cant.

You cant just add an ability to a unit just because you want to without it adding some sort of cost and have the it trialed out before placing it in a campaign!!


Quote (zellak)
What you describe sounds just like a Soviet mounted overrun tactics...KEWL !! tongue

So i dont see it breaking the game.


Most people dont see adding rules that give them huge advantages as breaking the game angry

Added (28-Jun-2011, 1:15 PM)
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Ohh another point for the 2nd week of the Campaign, Red Blok, UNA and Therians/ ONI will have to fight three separate Concorde square battles before entering the spaceport (Separate because they use different access points), This is because the Karmans control all the access zones and the deployment zone(page 77 Controlling sectors). This will be the same for all who attack an area that has a company deployed in it
Message edited by Banksi - Tuesday, 28-Jun-2011, 1:28 PM

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Tuesday, 28-Jun-2011, 4:42 PM | Message # 42
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Quote (Banksi)
You cant just add an ability to a unit just because you want to without it adding some sort of cost and have the it trialed out before placing it in a campaign!!


I'm not adding an ability...just trying to work out if a unit in an AFV can control an objective. The rules say neither yay or nay .

According to the rules it is okay for a unit to claim control of an objective through a wall, hence our house rule that you must have a LOS to claim control.

Quote (Banksi)
Most people dont see adding rules that give them huge advantages as breaking the game


Actually i really dont see the problem with the situation you dscribed. And after thinking it over....what about.

A UNA unit on overwatch ....a RB transport rounds a corner and engages the UNA, so they lose their overwatch.

The RB then pile out the back and blast the UNA at point blank range !

Perfectly legal......and more of a wierdo situation.

Quote (Banksi)
Ohh another point for the 2nd week of the Campaign, Red Blok, UNA and Therians/ ONI will have to fight three separate Concorde square battles before entering the spaceport (Separate because they use different access points), This is because the Karmans control all the access zones and the deployment zone(page 77 Controlling sectors). This will be the same for all who attack an area that has a company deployed in it


Think you have the wrong end of the stick there mate. surprised

A company only fights concord square battles for the right to use the access route.

The Karman are not moving, so no fight needed.

And if they were....the loser of a Concorde Square fight does not go back to the last position they held....they go all the way back to HQ. cool

Also on page 77

• A unit whose numbers are less than or equal to its standard number of fighters, but is not required to take a Morale
test, regains its standard number of fighters.


So does this apply to the unit guarding the room ?
Message edited by zellak - Tuesday, 28-Jun-2011, 4:51 PM

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
CheDate: Tuesday, 28-Jun-2011, 7:45 PM | Message # 43
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Lively debate on this forum. It all adds up to a hurt brain and loss of clear vision. (Mmm sounds like another area of activity, doesn't it!). You pair sort it out between you and I'll go along with whatever you decide. Life's too short, and mine's getting shorter by the minute. tongue

Added (28-Jun-2011, 7:45 PM)
---------------------------------------------
Quote (zellak)
Hope this is not negative waves....or the Commissars will be after you !


Negative, moi!

Quote (zellak)
Speaking of Commissars.....


Better not, eh? There's too much controversy already and it's only turn one!
Message edited by Che - Tuesday, 28-Jun-2011, 7:49 PM

Wargamers like to paint their privates!!
 
zellakDate: Tuesday, 28-Jun-2011, 8:50 PM | Message # 44
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Quote (Che)
You pair sort it out between you and I'll go along with whatever you decide.


Aye you are right, if you are not interested ...and Alan and Banksi are dead against the idea...then i will go along with them and agree that infantry must deploy to contest objectives.

i would still be interested to hear Gerry's take on it though. bye

Quote (Che)

Quote (zellak)
Speaking of Commissars.....

Better not, eh? There's too much controversy already and it's only turn one!


prolly right...better drop this as well.

Might have been fun though. happy

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Tuesday, 28-Jun-2011, 11:47 PM | Message # 45
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Quote (zellak)
A company only fights concord square battles for the right to use the access route.


Sorry, I read it as per (page 77 Controlling sectors) that the Fraction who controlled the sector controls both the access routes and deployment zone, So anyone else wishing to enter an access point has to win in a Concorde square scenario to have the right to pass through it.

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Wednesday, 29-Jun-2011, 10:34 AM | Message # 46
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Also on page 77

• A unit whose numbers are less than or equal to its standard number of fighters, but is not required to take a Morale
test, regains its standard number of fighters.


Looking at this again....if one of the four monkeys left was a hero....does that not mean the unit was destroyed at the end of the game ?

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Wednesday, 29-Jun-2011, 1:39 PM | Message # 47
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Quote (zellak)
Also on page 77

• A unit whose numbers are less than or equal to its standard number of fighters, but is not required to take a Morale
test, regains its standard number of fighters.

Looking at this again....if one of the four monkeys left was a hero....does that not mean the unit was destroyed at the end of the game ?


A hero is just a leader(Officer), he is picked in the same way any other leader is picked but instead of changing one of the normal troops a figure is added, he just happens to be called a hero... in fact his title is the same as the other leaders i.e. Mentor Freezer, Guru Lucius, Saint Auman etc. The difference being some can be chosen as a tank drivers or added to a unit. Not sure if other factions hero's can be chosen in this way too. (See Frostbite Guru Lucius page 61 Unit Formation)

IF he isn't part of that unit then he wouldn't be effected by anything that happens to that unit, i.e he would have a separate card which activates at a different time, go on different overwatch.

Added (29-Jun-2011, 11:58 Am)
---------------------------------------------
I must say , this is one of the best debates I've had in a long time... Move and counter move, the same point viewed in a different manner, It's almost as good as playing a wargame biggrin

Added (29-Jun-2011, 1:39 PM)
---------------------------------------------

Quote (zellak)
.does that not mean the unit was destroyed at the end of the game ?


Even if the unit was destroyed a hero is only destroyed if a company is destroyed which is wouldn't have been because of the 2 units not deployed on the table

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Wednesday, 29-Jun-2011, 11:10 PM | Message # 48
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So the unit of infantry was destroyed , but the hero is still alive (and can join another unit...or a replacement unit.)

Right ???? wacko

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Wednesday, 29-Jun-2011, 11:50 PM | Message # 49
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Quote (zellak)
So the unit of infantry was destroyed , but the hero is still alive (and can join another unit...or a replacement unit.)

Right ????


No, the hero is part of the unit as a leader, not a separate entity, just an officer with extra abilities, he adds to the unit total. If the unit was down to 3 including the leader then "YES" it would have been destroyed because a morale check would have been needed. You need to stop think of them as hero's and just officers of a unit.


Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Thursday, 30-Jun-2011, 9:26 AM | Message # 50
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Heroes are new to me as we have never used them before. So i checked the rules. page 76.

A hero can be the officer of any unit of his army of the same category and same type as him.
He is not counted in the unit’s numbers except to control objectives.
His value is added to his unit’s value.


If he is not counted in the unit numbers except to control objectives, then that means the unit should have checked morale.
So it should have been destroyed at the end of the game.

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Thursday, 30-Jun-2011, 10:47 AM | Message # 51
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From Frostbite

Guru Lucius can be the officer of any type 1 or 2 unit. Contrary
to normal officers, he does not replace a fighter but he is

addedto the unit. His cost is added to that of the unit.

Doesn't mention anywhere that he is a hero but an officer

If We are not counting officers add into the total, then for me that's a change of/ re-evaluation of the rules and I need to redo all my armies to accommodate that change. Because I would not have fielded any weakened units to control an objective. What happened on the first battle was under the interpretation that I read into them and effected how my army was set up and so cannot be counted this time.
Message edited by Banksi - Thursday, 30-Jun-2011, 11:39 AM

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Thursday, 30-Jun-2011, 11:31 AM | Message # 52
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All heroes are officers, and having checked the ONI/UNA/RB books heroes ...they all read the same as the bit you posted (except ODIN 0-1 and Manon 0-2).

ie.......... XYZ can be the officer of any type 1 or 2 unit.
Contrary to normal officers, he does not replace a fighter but he is added to the unit.
His cost is added to that of the unit
.

So Guru Lucius is an officer and he is a hero...so follows the same rules as all other heroes.

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Thursday, 30-Jun-2011, 11:40 AM | Message # 53
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Quote (zellak)
So Guru Lucius is an officer and he is a hero...so follows the same rules as all other heroes.


If We are not counting officers add into the total, then for me that's a change of/ re-evaluation of the rules and I need to redo all my armies to accommodate that change. Because I would not have fielded any weakened units to control an objective. What happened on the first battle was under the interpretation that I read into them and effected how my army was set up and so cannot be counted this time.

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Thursday, 30-Jun-2011, 11:44 AM | Message # 54
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Sure...i'm willing to let you off this time...no probs. biggrin

Better check with the other guys as well though. mellow

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Thursday, 30-Jun-2011, 12:11 PM | Message # 55
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Quote (zellak)

Better check with the other guys as well though.


Hopefully they will read this and comment here.

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
BalrogDate: Thursday, 30-Jun-2011, 2:52 PM | Message # 56
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Hey Guys ... Just to throw a spanner in the works, I was a bit confused to see a flying unit placed in the Spaceport Control Tower (room) doorway? Surely a "room" would have a doorway to be a set height for ONLY foot troops to pass through? .... Walt
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
zellakDate: Thursday, 30-Jun-2011, 11:27 PM | Message # 57
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To repeat what i already posted on page three.

"The control tower: The control tower is composed of a ground level and one upper floor.
The latter is represented by a tile placed above the one representing the ground level.
The first floor tile is propped up on four containers standing vertically (see map).
Infantry fighters may change floor at the beginning or end of their movement.
The change of floor is part of the movement.
If at least one member of a unit is on the stairway on ground level, his unit can be placed on the stairway
zone on the upper floor, and vice-versa.
This movement is part of the unit’s movement.
Fighters on the upper floor can shoot and be shot at using the normal rules.
Line of sight and range are checked using the miniatures actual position.

It is possible to reach the upper floor using the “Rocket Jump” ability, but it cannot be used to cross the walls of the control tower on ground level or upper floor level.
The control tower is secured: it cannot be sabotaged."


The second last line is the key one.....it is possible to enter the building at any point ...but not through a wall.
The walls are in black with a thin white edging.

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BalrogDate: Friday, 01-Jul-2011, 0:05 AM | Message # 58
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Soz Z ... I didn't explain myself very well. I knew/agree that ANY units can be on the first floor of the tower in the various areas shown on the 1st floor tile, however they get there, but my question is ... please ref image below ...

A snapshot of the first floor showing the "room" and only access "doorway"



... the "room" can only then be accessed by one "doorway", so shouldn't this be a standard height doorway that ONLY walking troops can enter by?

Hope this makes sense ... Walts
 
BalrogDate: Friday, 01-Jul-2011, 0:59 AM | Message # 59
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Hi Guys ... being a newbeeeeee to AT-43, I've read the pdfs on various sections again about the situ on morale & hero's, with what seems to be a bit of confusion in the written rules ...

A unit is subject to a Morale test upon its activation, in the following situations:
* A Type 1 or Type 2 infantry unit has fallen to 3 members or fewer;


... The "members" ref is the first point of confusion. Reading this in the rulebook made me think that ALL models should be added to the totals, including heroes & officers.

Then, the rules state ...


A hero can be the officer of any unit of his army of the same category and same type has him. He is not counted in the unit’s numbers except to control objectives.

... which makes me think that heroes and officers DO NOT contribute to the morale testing "members" (i.e. number of models) of a unit.

AND further on in the rules, it finally states that a unit is made up of "fighters" ...


The maximum number is the highest number of fighters in a unit without an officer.

... which leads me, in my humble opinion, that officers or heroes DO NOT contribute to a units numbers ("members") for morale tests.

This being said, IanB should have made a test for morale, which could have totally reshaped the game! One simple rule fails and the whole house comes falling down! BUT, as IanB said, he would have adjusted his army lists accordingly, and most likely have had an extra soldier in that unit which held the tower, so the game would have panned out the way it did anyway ... maybe?

Just my thoughts on the subject, but it does have a major slant on the last game! ... Walts ("The Ranter")
 
zellakDate: Friday, 01-Jul-2011, 9:11 AM | Message # 60
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Quote (Balrog)

... the "room" can only then be accessed by one "doorway", so shouldn't this be a standard height doorway that ONLY walking troops can enter by?

Hope this makes sense ... Walts


Normally vehicles can go through doorways as long as they are wide enough, no one has ever questioned the height of the doorway before this game.

So it was a new situation.

Perhaps we should rule that no vehicles can enter the control tower. ???

Added (01-Jul-2011, 9:11 Am)
---------------------------------------------

Quote (zellak)
The maximum number is the highest number of fighters in a unit without an officer.

... which leads me, in my humble opinion, that officers or heroes DO NOT contribute to a units numbers ("members") for morale tests.

This being said, IanB should have made a test for morale, which could have totally reshaped the game! One simple rule fails and the whole house comes falling down! BUT, as IanB said, he would have adjusted his army lists accordingly, and most likely have had an extra soldier in that unit which held the tower, so the game would have panned out the way it did anyway ... maybe?

Just my thoughts on the subject, but it does have a major slant on the last game! ... Walts ("The Ranter")


There would have been no major difference to the game, failing a morale check can be countered by paying 2 LP to rally the unit back to valiant status. The main difference is that after the battle, when a unit is reduced to a number where it takes morale checks every turn.
The campaign rules it is no longer fit for service and is destroyed ( the members go for some R&R ?) .

That would mean the monkeys lost two units in the battle , not just one (the tank).

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
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