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Forum » AT-43 Discussions » AT-43 - Armies » Karman - vanilla list - support units (Karman core list errata)
Karman - vanilla list - support units
BalrogDate: Monday, 14-May-2012, 4:56 PM | Message # 41
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Soz Banksi ... I'm going to have too go back on my previous statment, again!

I've just come back from my friends who speaks fluent French as his son married a Frenchie and he's always over there and has learned to read & write the lingo for the past 20 years so he can chat with the grandkids, and he says the English Karman Armybook is correct in it's translation. It's all to do with the grammer, i.e. their language is a f&%ked up as ours! He mentioned that the phrase ... Unité de fantassins ... can stand for ... "Infantry Unit", but it also has other translations, i.e. "Foot", "Infantrymen" & "Foot Soldiers".

So which one to use ...

Looking at the rest of the French Karman Armybook, he pointed out that the other Karman factions have clearly defined what "Units of Infantry" are written as ... Unité d’infanterie ... so why would they use anything different in the main Karman Army. He says to define "Soldiers" in our case. So, soz Banksi, I'm back agreeing with zellak that your main Karman faction should have "Soldiers" and the Open R-Tool is wrong! surprised

Soz everyone for the confusion, should have went to my matey first before using the dumb translators!! Computers + Walts = useless!!!

As to referencing the French books, I would say they are the main books from which all others (i.e. our English versions!) stem from, so I would use them ... Walts
 
gerrywithaGDate: Monday, 14-May-2012, 5:39 PM | Message # 42
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Quote (Balrog)
I've just come back from my friends who speaks fluent French as his son married a Frenchie and he's always over there and has learned to read & write the lingo for the past 20 years so he can chat with the grandkids, and he says the English Karman Armybook is correct in it's translation. It's all to do with the grammer, i.e. their language is a f&%ked up as ours! He mentioned that the phrase ... Unité de fantassins ... can stand for ... "Infantry Unit", but it also has other translations, i.e. "Foot", "Infantrymen" & "Foot Soldiers".

So which one to use ...

Looking at the rest of the French Karman Armybook, he pointed out that the other Karman factions have clearly defined what "Units of Infantry" are written as ... Unité d’infanterie ... so why would they use anything different in the main Karman Army. He says to define "Soldiers" in our case. So, soz Banksi, I'm back agreeing with zellak that your main Karman faction should have "Soldiers" and the Open R-Tool is wrong!


Chaps,

I refer you back to my previous post ( number 20 on this thread) where I did state that in the French MAIN rulebook there was a definite distinction in the word used for Infantry and the word used for soldier!!!

But nobody seemed to have bothered with the Main Rulebook!!!!!!!!1 wacko wacko wacko

Cheers

Gerry

Added (14-May-2012, 5:36 PM)
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Quote (Balrog)
I also don't believe we should be adding in rules as well, like the "Jump System" ruling of old that only INF can use it. Keep things simple and play the rules as their written. Adding in these rules doesn't bring anything to the game ... imho of course ... Walts


Nice to know that you kept up to speed with Da'Umpires Ruling on this........NOT!!!!!

You would have noticed that AFV's were included with a single caveat to the rules as written

Quote (Balrog)
But we now know that our interpretation was wrong, and that all "fighters" (ie Striders, AFV & Inf) can have the ability as a company. Core to all the rules is that it's a game of fantasy! Because this ability was tweaked, Therians have no way of "flying" their troop carrier around the battlefield, so it's a major disadvantage to them. This is my problem with all the tweaks floating about ... they all have unwanted effects on specific armies, factions or units in some way.


The Therians have no disadvantage as per the Umpire's Ruling!!!!!

Cheers

Gerry

Added (14-May-2012, 5:39 PM)
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Quote (zellak)
So ...are we now allowed to search the German and French books for other translations?

In order to find more advantages for our armies.

OOOOOOh fun !

NOT


Personally, my favourite is the Outer Mongolian translation which allows me to reroll all my missed hits and damage rolls until I get the result I want biggrin wink biggrin

Oh and I get a 1+ save too!!!!

Brilliant biggrin cool biggrin

Cheers

Gerry

And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
 
pavlovDate: Monday, 14-May-2012, 6:36 PM | Message # 43
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edit
Message edited by pavlov - Thursday, 17-May-2012, 5:04 PM

There is f&*k all cool about 10+ civil engineers running around every battlefield
 
gerrywithaGDate: Monday, 14-May-2012, 6:38 PM | Message # 44
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Quote (pavlov)
It's that sort of childish attitude that can get you checked around here, thats my domain sonny ....your still not up to speed yet a couple of youtube links will sort that out


Drat , and I thought my disguise was good too!!!!!!! biggrin biggrin biggrin

Cheers

Gerry

And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
 
pavlovDate: Monday, 14-May-2012, 6:58 PM | Message # 45
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Edit
Message edited by pavlov - Thursday, 17-May-2012, 5:05 PM

There is f&*k all cool about 10+ civil engineers running around every battlefield
 
zellakDate: Monday, 14-May-2012, 7:12 PM | Message # 46
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What if....

the karmans and red blok can get support units in slot three of their vanilla lists...same as the Therians and UNA.

And the ONi can choose to get a sniper rifle in their merc units (instead of Laser Gun).

And can take sniper or laser gun support units (on a par with RB Dragonov Kommandos.) (same stats & same AP cost)

Then all vanilla lists can take support units.

Added (14-May-2012, 7:12 PM)
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Quote (Balrog)
Of course, having checked other inHouse Rules we've made in the past against the French rules, we've made a few other "bo-bo's" like the one above! See if u can spot the bad interpretations!!! ... Walts


I'm sure i remember you saying that you would no longer take part in AT-43 rules debates.......

And leave it all in the hands of the other AT-43 players.

Must have been my imagination.
Message edited by zellak - Monday, 14-May-2012, 7:14 PM

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
pavlovDate: Monday, 14-May-2012, 7:28 PM | Message # 47
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Edit
Message edited by pavlov - Thursday, 17-May-2012, 5:05 PM

There is f&*k all cool about 10+ civil engineers running around every battlefield
 
BanksiDate: Monday, 14-May-2012, 8:18 PM | Message # 48
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A lot of research has gone into all of this thread and I thank everyone for there input.

It proves that we all can find information about AT-43 to make the right decision.

But we are beginning to go around in circles again

Can I bring this discussion to a close by making some simple ground rules that we all can follow:

1. We go back to the statement - "Karman Core platoon cannot take support units" and use this rule.

2. We do not force anyone to use only Core platoons during any campaign.

This will let everyone go back to the way it was and if a Karman player wants to use a Core platoon that up to them.

Hopefully this will end the debate.
Message edited by Banksi - Monday, 14-May-2012, 8:31 PM

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Monday, 14-May-2012, 9:46 PM | Message # 49
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Quote (pavlov)
Everyone gets support units and the oni dont get to pick what they want (as I would imagine that a sniper is better than a laser), since the mercs are the same as the una then they should have the same support as the una, thats fair.


The ONi use Elite ex-UNA and ex-RB personel according to the fluff.

Natalya is ex-RB and uses a sniper rifle.

Only a few trooptypes were ever produced for the ONi....it is very limiting.

Allowing AT teams and Sniper teams, would give a bit of variety. The 3 man AT/sniper RB teams are the same points. So are the same.

Quote (Banksi)
1. We go back to the statement - "Karman Core platoon cannot take support units" and use this rule.

2. We do not force anyone to use only Core platoons during any campaign.


1. Sure, if thats the way you would prefer it.

2. Its not possible to put a blanket rule on anyone who wants to run a campaign...thats an Umpires decision.

(if you feel that a certain restriction will limit your chance of winning to such a degree that is unacceptable....and winning is the main reason to take part.....then there is no reason to take part. )
Message edited by zellak - Monday, 14-May-2012, 9:48 PM

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Monday, 14-May-2012, 9:49 PM | Message # 50
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Quote (zellak)

(if you feel that a certain restriction will limit your chance of winning to such a degree that is unacceptable....and winning is the main reason to take part.....then there is no reason to take part. )


Actually, Yes i do think that and Yes I wouldn't take part

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Monday, 14-May-2012, 9:53 PM | Message # 51
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Good for you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I believe that All the base core lists are evenly matched.

And no one is at an extreme disadvantage.

Maybe we will never find out. wacko

Playtesting is a great leveller.

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Monday, 14-May-2012, 10:48 PM | Message # 52
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Quote (zellak)

I believe that All the base core lists are evenly matched.


My Belief is slightly different that in the Armies as a whole as evenly matched.

By restricting people to a limited choice that then weakens the army.

One doesn't go to war with the TA and leave behind the Marines to be home guard.

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
gerrywithaGDate: Tuesday, 15-May-2012, 0:20 AM | Message # 53
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I think all the armies have advantages and disadvantages and until we play all the options and variables then we'll never find out.

Personally, I'd play the core armies as I described previously and see how they get on. It's only after doing that we can determine if an army was disadvantaged or not

Cheers

Gerry
Message edited by gerrywithaG - Tuesday, 15-May-2012, 0:29 AM

And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
 
BalrogDate: Tuesday, 15-May-2012, 0:23 AM | Message # 54
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Wow ... u guys have been busy! I step out for a few hours and the posts just keep coming ... mentaaallllllll! (In a good way of course!) biggrin

Whilst I was out & about, I thought about the initial post I made about the Errata. It's why I went to the French books for some clarity, and got myself confused again, then finally came toward the light ... clarityyyy! The Errata proved once again it was right. I'm sorry I didn't just leave it there instead of running around in circles! But, I still think the French books have some merit, even though their language is as mental as ours to understand. Luckily, I've someone to bug rather than try a crappy translator again, but my mate did show me how to use it correctly for other translations! It's all fun and games!!!

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


Quote (zellak)
I'm sure i remember you saying that you would no longer take part in AT-43 rules debates.......

I thought no-one was going to post online anymore?! I didn't start the bandwagon that everyone joined in, so I think we're all guilty as charged. surprised

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


Quote (gerrywithaG)
You would have noticed that AFV's were included with a single caveat to the rules as written

Soz Gerry, but what was the ruling again? I've got a little bit confused with what's current and who's playing what, and I play the game! I can see why no-one else wants to join in with our rules constantly changing!!!

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


Quote (pavlov)
Go on Walter spare us and tell us where we got it wrong

Nah, I'll leave it up to u guys to check out the pointless inHouse Rules and see which one's wonky. I, of course, think their all wonky, but that's just me trying to get the rules back to what they where originally ... simplistic and easy to play ... now there's tweaks for this, that and the other which have unbalanced the game! bb2 RAW forever bb ... Walts


PS: Soz if I haven't answered everything, this threads gone mental and well off the tangents, and u know how "simplistic" I like things!
 
gerrywithaGDate: Tuesday, 15-May-2012, 0:34 AM | Message # 55
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Quote (Balrog)
Soz Gerry, but what was the ruling again? I've got a little bit confused with what's current and who's playing what, and I play the game! I can see why no-one else wants to join in with our rules constantly changing!!!


Walts,

it's in the Umpire Rulings under Jump Rules

Cheers

Gerry

Added (15-May-2012, 0:34 AM)
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Quote (Balrog)
I thought no-one was going to post online anymore?! I didn't start the bandwagon that everyone joined in, so I think we're all guilty as charged.


Walts,

Who said that because I know I certainly didn't ?? Think you need to clarify that statement with the actual facts before making such a broad and sweeping statement and branding everyone as guilty!

Cheers

Gerry

And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
 
BalrogDate: Tuesday, 15-May-2012, 6:57 AM | Message # 56
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Quote (gerrywithaG)
Walts,

it's in the Umpire Rulings under Jump Rules

Cheers ... Gerry

Found it! ... http://www.northayrshirewargamesclub.co.uk/forum/21-227-1

Not really sure what this tweak brings to the game? As it's a game of fantasy, what's so hard to imagine Striders "jumping" on top of containers? As too crossing various difficult terrain (crevasse, water, etc), the Frostbite rules are pretty clear (P14) ... "A fighter can jump over a crevasse. His movement is then halved." ... so why complicated things?


Quote (gerrywithaG)
Walts,

Who said that because I know I certainly didn't ?? Think you need to clarify that statement with the actual facts before making such a broad and sweeping statement and branding everyone as guilty!

Cheers ... Gerry

This is exactly the problem in general!? Everyone seems to be on different pages about everything. I've obviously assumed everyone was on the same book about posting and that all discussions where to be at the club?! So when posting cropped up, I assumed it was a free for all as the player isn't in the new campaign? confused.com is an understatement! wacko

Besides, I promise to be nice as well ... It will be interesting to see how long I last at that! wink ... Give me a week and I'll have forgotten that ruling, even though I've made it!!! surprised

Finally, all players have to accept that all armies have pro's & con's, with some having more of one and few of ether! It's a game of fantasy. The "David & Goliath" story is symbolic to the weaker overcoming the extremely more powerful ... exactly like AT-43! I beg all players to accept what they have as written within their armybooks and play the game as written. Look for clarity in the Errata's and the main books, including the Frenchies. The understairs forums give a much better platform for getting an unbiased response to questions because most of the key members have two, three or four armies and they've come to realise that any tweaks will benefit one army but cause the others to suffer! Adding in any tweaks causes more confusion and, like I've said before, will one day effect the outcome of a battle and someone to lose because they've forgotten what's current, and another player will walk away from the AT-43 game sad ... Walts
 
gerrywithaGDate: Tuesday, 15-May-2012, 2:57 PM | Message # 57
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Quote (Balrog)
Found it! ... http://www.northayrshirewargamesclub.co.uk/forum/21-227-1

Not really sure what this tweak brings to the game? As it's a game of fantasy, what's so hard to imagine Striders "jumping" on top of containers? As too crossing various difficult terrain (crevasse, water, etc), the Frostbite rules are pretty clear (P14) ... "A fighter can jump over a crevasse. His movement is then halved." ... so why complicated things?

Wasn't asking what you thought about it, I was pointing out that it was a query that was asked to be looked at, opinions were given, and I ,as the umpire, made a decision on for our club.
Quote (Balrog)
This is exactly the problem in general!? Everyone seems to be on different pages about everything. I've obviously assumed everyone was on the same book about posting and that all discussions where to be at the club?! So when posting cropped up, I assumed it was a free for all as the player isn't in the new campaign? confused.com is an understatement!


Walter, you haven't answered my question Could you please do that?

You make assumptions Walts without getting the facts, and I would remind you that you stated that you wouldn't be making any comment or taking any part in any discussions regarding AT-43. I'm happy to post a copy of your email to remind you of that if you've forgotten what you originally wrote.

Quote (Balrog)
The understairs forums give a much better platform for getting an unbiased response to questions because most of the key members have two, three or four armies


I think you'll find that most of the key members of our club have ALSO have 2,3, or 4 armies so again check your facts before commenting. As to understairs being UNBIASED in their opinions I don't really know, they may well be and good for them. However I'm concerned with my local club and not somebody in a different part of the world.

Added (15-May-2012, 2:57 PM)
---------------------------------------------

Quote (Balrog)
Look for clarity in the Errata's and the main books, including the Frenchies.


Given the events of yesterday, and your problems with the French rulebook and translations I think we might be best to pass on that one don't you think?? The errata is there because there are things that need clarified, but I would also point out that the updated one has been added to by a number of players and members of the understairs forum, very nicely done, admittedly but, not an official resource, as Rackham is no more. Bit like saying that as I worked for Tesco 20 years ago that I'm in a position to comment on their business plan. I think not!!

Quote (Balrog)
Besides, I promise to be nice as well ... It will be interesting to see how long I last at that!


Quote (Balrog)
Give me a week and I'll have forgotten that ruling, even though I've made it!!!


In that instance I'd be wanting the moderator to look at your postings then

Cheers

Gerry

And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
 
zellakDate: Tuesday, 15-May-2012, 4:07 PM | Message # 58
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Quote (pavlov)
Everyone gets support units and the oni dont get to pick what they want (as I would imagine that a sniper is better than a laser), since the mercs are the same as the una then they should have the same support as the una, thats fair.


It was an idea made up on the spur of the moment in response to a post.

Your idea looks better....the UNA Steel Laser Gun teams and the Wing Sniper team are both 85 AP with triple lense helmets.

I would use those instead of the RB stats. (And without the G-packs of course. dry )

Added (15-May-2012, 4:07 PM)
---------------------------------------------

Quote (Balrog)
Besides, I promise to be nice as well ... It will be interesting to see how long I last at that! ... Give me a week and I'll have forgotten that ruling, even though I've made it!!!


Dont feed the troll.

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BalrogDate: Tuesday, 15-May-2012, 4:29 PM | Message # 59
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Quote (gerrywithaG)
Walter, you haven't answered my question Could you please do that?

You make assumptions Walts without getting the facts, and I would remind you that you stated that you wouldn't be making any comment or taking any part in any discussions regarding AT-43. I'm happy to post a copy of your email to remind you of that if you've forgotten what you originally wrote.

Soz Gerry, but I got bored and decided to change my mind, just like the rules in AT-43! wink I should really write things down as I'm always forgeting what page I'm on, let alone what everyone else has said ... Walts
 
gerrywithaGDate: Tuesday, 15-May-2012, 4:50 PM | Message # 60
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Quote (Balrog)
Soz Gerry, but I got bored and decided to change my mind, just like the rules in AT-43! I should really write things down as I'm always forgeting what page I'm on, let alone what everyone else has said ... Walts


Hi Walts,

Here's what you wrote just to refresh your memory

"Hi Guys

As you'll know, having caused Gerry to quit as the AT-43 umpire has caused everyone great distress. I've apologised to Gerry for my incessant ranting and have decided to no longer take part in ANY debates about AT-43. This includes debates on new unit types, armybooks, inHouse Rules and corebook tweaks.

I hope that by removing myself from any debates that Gerry might consider coming back as "Da Umpire", or that a new person would take up the position knowing that the #1 ranter will no longer be on their back?

I will be more than happy to accept all rulings that the AT-43 players agree on and simple look to going back to enjoy playing the game, rather than worrying about any rule changes, if I'm welcome to play at all.

Once again, apologise to everyone for the troubles I've caused. Being too opinionated has caused me much grief in life, let alone at the club, so I'm sorry to have passed this onto Gerry and all the club members involved in AT-43.

With me out of the debating picture, I'm sure you'll have calmer seas,

Walts"
________________________________________
Do you think you can stick to that please? As I'd rather not refer you to the moderator and ask to have you removed from posting on the At-43 side of things which would be a touch embarrassing to be honest

Cheers

Gerry

And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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