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Transport comparison.
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| zellak | Date: Saturday, 03-Mar-2012, 20:41:11 | Message # 1 |
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The AP values of the transports make no sense.
Dirt Kongaroo : page 68 / 225 AP/ move 25/ armour 14 / morale 10 (3+)/ gun scores 4 hits on ave at range 6.... pen8 /dam1.
Soundounk : page 56 / 275 AP / move 20 / armour 11 / morale 9 (4+) / gun scores 3 hits on ave at range 5....pen7/ dam1.
Camel : page 30 / 250 AP / move 25 / armour 9 / morale 7 (4+) / guns cores 2 automatic hits at range 2....pen 14/dam 1.
All three transports can carry a minimum size type 1 infantry squad of their own army.
The Karman transport looks exceptionally overpowered for its points cost.
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DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "
Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
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| pavlov | Date: Saturday, 03-Mar-2012, 20:46:36 | Message # 2 |
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Hi
Tuff, the Karman dirt kongaroo only carries 4 troop or 2 k troops so not very overpowerd for price and why didnt you put up the oni transport since its the best value around.
IF YOU WANT THE DIRT KONGAROO THEN PLAY KARMANS 
Oh and stop trolling, it's been very calm and serene around here
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Message edited by pavlov - Saturday, 03-Mar-2012, 20:47:51
There is f&*k all cool about 10+ civil engineers running around every battlefield
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| zellak | Date: Saturday, 03-Mar-2012, 21:14:50 | Message # 3 |
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I didnt include the Oni or the Kraken as neither can fly.
Its more difficult to make a comparison.
As i said, all transports can carry a minimum size type 1 squad for their respective armies. (except ONi,,,,, but its 375 AP !!!)
So are all the same.
Quote (pavlov) IF YOU WANT THE DIRT KONGAROO THEN PLAY KARMANS
Glad you admit that the Karman transport is overpowered.
Are we going to do anything about it.....prolly not. <<<<<<<<<<shrugs>>>>>>>>>>>>
There are to many people think that everything in the books is gospel. 
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DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "
Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
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| gerrywithaG | Date: Saturday, 03-Mar-2012, 21:59:28 | Message # 4 |
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Hi gents,
Would like to say that I don't feel this comparison is altogether fair. If you are going to make comparisons as regards shooting then you should quote any shooting hits at the same range to show a fair comparison.
I would also say that your comparison should have taken into account what you need to roll to penetrate the armour to cause the damage described e.g camel gun will penetrate kangaroo armour on a 4+, whilst kangaroo gun penetrates Soundounk armour on 5+
Cheers
Gerry
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And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
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| pavlov | Date: Saturday, 03-Mar-2012, 22:18:30 | Message # 5 |
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Hi
See much better analysis from Gerry...............thats why he's the umpire.
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There is f&*k all cool about 10+ civil engineers running around every battlefield
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| zellak | Date: Saturday, 03-Mar-2012, 22:45:14 | Message # 6 |
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I was comparing general levels of firepower (against all targets), rather than in a straight head to head.
The camel is less useful at gunning down infantry, the other two are less useful against heavy armour.
Quote (gerrywithaG) I would also say that your comparison should have taken into account what you need to roll to penetrate the armour to cause the damage described e.g camel gun will penetrate kangaroo armour on a 4+, whilst kangaroo gun penetrates Soundounk armour on 5+
Lets say range 5 ???? Kongaroo vs Soundouk
Kongaroo scores 4 hits on average, penetrates on 5+ = 1.33333 penetrations.
Soundouk shoots back.....cannot penetrate the armour. (remember the Soundouk is 50 AP more expensive, is slower and has worse morale)
DK for the win.
Kongaroo scores 4 hits on a camel (average) at range 5, penetrates on a 4+ = 2 damage. (ave)
Camel scores 2 hits on a Kongaroo ( 89% chance/ die) at range 5, penetrates on a 4+ = 1 damage (ave)
DK for the win.
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DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "
Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
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| Balrog | Date: Saturday, 03-Mar-2012, 23:42:59 | Message # 7 |
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 ... comparing armies/troops/afv's/striders/transports/abilities/points ...
That's definitely a no-win situation in anyone's books! ... The diff in the various armies is where the challenge comes in when picking your companies!!
Bring on those transports, my Support Missile Teams are itching to let rip with their tin openers! ... War ON!!! ... Walts
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| Banksi | Date: Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 01:14:27 | Message # 8 |
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I think comparing any one unit to another in another army is never going to work, As long as you compare ALL the units in all the armies that's fine. There has to be balance in the armies, The karmans have major draw backs that are made up in other ways. i.e
1, Small units that are easily broken.
2. Poor amount of medic
3. Non self-repairing vehicles
4. Poor amounts of Mechanics to repair the vehicles
This is made up for by
1. large amounts of fire power
2. Some good vehicles - Not all are good!!
3. Some Good leadership abilities
I'm sure if you compare some of these to other armies then the other armies will look superior in many ways.
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Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
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| zellak | Date: Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 01:39:52 | Message # 9 |
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Quote (pavlov) See much better analysis from Gerry...............thats why he's the umpire.
And your analysis is that everyone should want the DK.
I agree with you ..........its overpowered.
Quote (Balrog) The diff in the various armies is where the challenge comes in when picking your companies!!
i agree, but the AP paid for every trooptype should be equivalent to its ability on the table.
Quote (Banksi) I think comparing any one unit to another in another army is never going to work, As long as you compare ALL the units in all the armies that's fine. There has to be balance in the armies, The karmans have major draw backs that are made up in other ways. i.e
1, Small units that are easily broken.
2. Poor amount of medic
3. Non self-repairing vehicles
4. Poor amounts of Mechanics to repair the vehicles
This is made up for by
1. large amounts of fire power
2. Some good vehicles - Not all are good!!
3. Some Good leadership abilities
I'm sure if you compare some of these to other armies then the other armies will look superior in many ways.
I am not comparing armies...... only a single equivalent trooptype.
The numbers speak for themselves.
i would not have brought the subject up if it was not so blatantly WRONG !
Check all the stats for yourselves and show me some numbers . 
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Message edited by zellak - Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 01:40:24
DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "
Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
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| gerrywithaG | Date: Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 01:58:04 | Message # 10 |
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Quote (zellak) Quote (pavlov)
IF YOU WANT THE DIRT KONGAROO THEN PLAY KARMANS
Glad you admit that the Karman transport is overpowered.
Think we all know that he is goading you with that and don't recall him saying anything about the Karman transport being overpowered
Quote (zellak) I am not comparing armies...... only a single equivalent trooptype.
The numbers speak for themselves.
Have to disagree with you there. You could say the same about comparing type I infantry units. Every unit in every army has different strengths and weaknesses and all cost different points costs, can do different things, so do we go down the route of changing all them too????
Quote (zellak) Check all the stats for yourselves and show me some numbers .
In the middle of doing that just now and will report back with findings
Quote (zellak) gun scores 4 hits on ave at range 6
Quote (zellak) gun scores 3 hits on ave at range
How are you calculating the average hits that you are claiming, and on what basis did you do the testing of it??
Cheers
Gerry
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And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
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| zellak | Date: Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 02:25:28 | Message # 11 |
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Quote (gerrywithaG) How are you calculating the average hits that you are claiming, and on what basis did you do the testing of it??
math.
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DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "
Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
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| Banksi | Date: Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 02:27:00 | Message # 12 |
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Quote (zellak)
I am not comparing armies...... only a single equivalent trooptype.
Thats my point you can't compare units!!!
The karmans :
Dont have routines
Cant create AFV's
Can't heal or bring back from the dead with every unit
Can't Convert units into better ones
Cant rush everywhere
If comparing one unit you have to compare the whole army - it's been balanced
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Message edited by Banksi - Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 02:27:21
Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
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| gerrywithaG | Date: Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 02:27:46 | Message # 13 |
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Okay, I'll be more specific. :D
How many test dice were thrown in each case??? And what ranges were the hits being calculated at?? Were the same number of dice thrown for each range band???
Cheers
Gerry
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Message edited by gerrywithaG - Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 02:31:15
And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
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| Banksi | Date: Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 02:37:02 | Message # 14 |
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Whats gonna be next:
The Karman infantry fires too much?
The King Mammoth is way too powerful? But hasn't actually fired any shots!!
The Karman units are to big!!  Added (04-Mar-2012, 1:37 AM)
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Has anyone looked at the points cost for
all the Therian routines?
Or that ONi R&D Vehicles can still fire when the weapons are destroyed?
I'm sure we could go on about a unit in every army and we haven't even seen what the Cogs can do yet!!!!!!!
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Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
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| gerrywithaG | Date: Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 02:38:06 | Message # 15 |
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Quote (Banksi) Karman units are to big
Well the models are definetely bigger than some of my UNA ones. Does that count?????
Cheers
Gerry
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And I am watching YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
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| Banksi | Date: Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 02:40:06 | Message # 16 |
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Quote (gerrywithaG) Well the models are definetely bigger than some of my UNA ones. Does that count?????
Yes... next it will be that Karmans cant take cover cos they are too large
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Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
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| gerrywithaG | Date: Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 02:42:11 | Message # 17 |
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Quote (Banksi) Yes... next it will be that Karmans cant take cover cos they are too large
Very sporting of you to offer that disadvantage to the Karmans, but I think the umpire will pass on taking you up on that one!!!! 
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| Banksi | Date: Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 02:45:25 | Message # 18 |
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Quote (gerrywithaG) Very sporting of you to offer that disadvantage to the Karmans, but I think the umpire will pass on taking you up on that one!!!!
I didn't mention that they are now all invisible cos the white fur blends in with the ice.
They dont slide on the ice cos they go about on all fours
They see in the dark cos they eat bananas.
ohh and they are too big to fall down crevasses
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Message edited by Banksi - Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 02:46:31
Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
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| gerrywithaG | Date: Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 02:47:29 | Message # 19 |
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Quote (Banksi) I didn't mention that they are now all invisible cos the white fur blends in with the ice.
They dont slide on the ice cos they go about on all fours
They see in the dark cos they eat bananas.
Now do you REALLY want me to try and work out a points cost for these Karman advantages ???
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| Banksi | Date: Sunday, 04-Mar-2012, 02:48:37 | Message # 20 |
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Quote (gerrywithaG) Now do you REALLY want me to try and work out a points cost for these Karman advantages ???
Points cost?????
I thought they would be free!!!!!
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Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
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