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AT-43 phase 2 rules proposals
zellakDate: Monday, 22-Aug-2011, 10:18 AM | Message # 1
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As we are about to go into phase 2 could we first knock a few ideas around as to rule changes.

For me , there are two main problems with the rules 1) Flamers shooting over the top of friends (mentioned by Tom at one of the starport battles)

and 2) Grenades....which are useless , so nobody uses them.

So here is what i propose.

1) Flamers >>>>>>>>>>> flamers use the WH40K flamer template. (simple. happy )

2) Grenades.

This one is much more complex....read it twice before asking any questions.

It comes in two parts, first it requires a new Combat Drill called Assault Group.

Assault Group : 1 LP , choose 3 riflemen to become an Assault Group, move these 3 miniatures together to mark them as the AG.

This movement is free, it does not trigger overwatch.

The Assault Group is now considered to be a Temporary special weapon bearer.
With all rules for those in effect.

Part Two.....Grenades.

The small WH40K blast template will be used for grenades.
A unit armed with grenades costs +40 AP.
Use accuracy and penetration as given in your Army Book .
Roll 1 die for each of the Assault Group throwing a grenade. (maximum of 3)
The template scatters 1cm for each miss, unless they all miss then it scatters 10cm.

Other suggested rule changes.

New Combat Drills

Fall Back : 3 LP , this is called at the start of the units activation. It is removed from the field and may not return.

Call HQ : 3 LP , Only the Company Commander may do this. The Company gains 50 RP.

Smoke : 3 LP , Called at the start of the activation.
A unit armed with grenades may place a 10cm diameter smoke marker within range 1 of the leader. it blocks LOS.
It disappears on a 1 on 1d6 in the Control Phase.

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Wednesday, 24-Aug-2011, 0:10 AM | Message # 2
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Assault group might only work for those who have larger cheaper units.

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Wednesday, 24-Aug-2011, 10:35 AM | Message # 3
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Quote (Banksi)
Assault group might only work for those who have larger cheaper units.


All units will be giving up the firepower of 3 riflemen for another special weapon bearer.

I can see where the firepower of some individual riflemen in some armies may not warrant the loss of that much firepower.

ie. the monkeys . dry

But in all other cases its a fair trade.

UNA/RB/Therian ................. ONI dont use grenades.
Message edited by zellak - Wednesday, 24-Aug-2011, 11:11 AM

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Wednesday, 24-Aug-2011, 1:51 PM | Message # 4
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Quote (zellak)

All units will be giving up the firepower of 3 riflemen for another special weapon bearer.

I can see where the firepower of some individual riflemen in some armies may not warrant the loss of that much firepower.

ie. the monkeys . dry

But in all other cases its a fair trade.

UNA/RB/Therian ................. ONI dont use grenades.



I think this is another rule that needs play tested and should be held back until after the campaign finishes, not to be thrown in half way through.
Not totally against it but it may have bigger effects than we think and my be a rule that is useful for some but not all.
If this is the case then it should come at a points cost, rather than just be given as an other order. i.e. 50-100rp/ap per unit to allow a unit to use this order.

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
CheDate: Wednesday, 24-Aug-2011, 7:27 PM | Message # 5
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Quote (zellak)
As we are about to go into phase 2 could we first knock a few ideas around as to rule changes.


No! But I'll go with the majority of course. That's not an easy decision from a Marxist perspective angry

Added (24-Aug-2011, 7:27 PM)
---------------------------------------------

Quote (zellak)
1) Flamers >>>>>>>>>>> flamers use the WH40K flamer template. (simple. )


Alright, I'll go along with this one. But the other stuff is just getting overly complicated. My old brain can't take it.

I never forget a face, but in your case I'm willing to make an exception - Groucho Marx.
 
zellakDate: Wednesday, 24-Aug-2011, 11:17 PM | Message # 6
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Quote (Banksi)
I think this is another rule that needs play tested and should be held back until after the campaign finishes, not to be thrown in half way through.


Interesting point. surprised i hadn't considered the campaign so important that it couldn't take a little tweaking. And grenades cost +40AP a unit.
So you think it should be more + 50 to a +100 a unit ?

Quote (Che)
Alright, I'll go along with this one. But the other stuff is just getting overly complicated. My old brain can't take it.


As i said , the flamers and grenades are the only things needing a fix.

It seems there are a lot of players with unspent LP at the end of the turn (Not me of course .....using LP hungry Therians smile )

So the last three combat drills i added were just things for players to spend their extra LP on, and give them a few more tactical options.

I'm not bothered with them one way or another. <<<<<<< shrugs>>>>>>>> happy

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Friday, 26-Aug-2011, 12:56 PM | Message # 7
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Quote (zellak)
1) Flamers >>>>>>>>>>> flamers use the WH40K flamer template. (simple. happy )


Question!! do all the flames have the same area effect? and strength? the Karman on is 1 4 9/1

Does using a 40k flamer increase or decrease the size of the template i.e. 4cm and is it the same length or range 25cm

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
BalrogDate: Friday, 26-Aug-2011, 10:23 PM | Message # 8
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Hey Guys ... I don't think we need to be adding in more rules/drills/etc to the current AT-43 campaign, without running a couple of test runs first, at least! Reading odd sections of the Red Blok army book, everything seems pretty clear regarding flamers & grenades? Here's a video of someone using a current style flamer ...

>>> Flame Thrower Video

... so, in AT-43 timescale, the accurecy & control would be even better than what's already in the market, so being able to shoot at specific areas and over troops is not that far fetched, is it? Each faction has subtle diff's in the weapons stats, but nothing too diverse.

As for grenades, their not the most powerful of weapon, but used by a full unit, they could oust any troopers hiding in a hole, so their effective enough?

I think AlanB has a point with tweaking rules for the sake of it, but for me, if it's needed and adds to the game then OK, but flamers & grenades look OK?

Just my two rubles worth ... Walts
 
zellakDate: Friday, 26-Aug-2011, 11:33 PM | Message # 9
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Quote (Balrog)
& grenades look OK?


In that case, i suggest you equip all your infantry with grenades and always throw them instead of firing small arms when at close range. haha

No one uses grenades....they are crap. And cost extra !!!!

Its wrong!.... grenades are the infantrymans weapon of choice at close range, according to most RL battle experiences i have read.

Flame thrower video >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Dont think i would be a happy bunny standing in front of that. More a fried rarebit. biggrin

Even WH40K got flamers right......and they have plenty of timescale.

Added (26-Aug-2011, 11:33 PM)
---------------------------------------------

Quote (Banksi)
Does using a 40k flamer increase or decrease the size of the template


Get it out and measure it Banksi ! tongue

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Saturday, 27-Aug-2011, 9:17 AM | Message # 10
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[/b]Can we please stop meddling with the rules in the middle of a campaign!!!!

These changes could give advantages to some and disadvantages to others, We don't know, that or we do know that it will give some advantages to an army that they didn't have before.

If you want to play test do it outside the campaign!!!

Don't try and fix something that isn't broken!!!

I'd like things for the Karman but I'm all for sticking to whats been written even if it isn't to my advantage.
[b]
Message edited by Banksi - Saturday, 27-Aug-2011, 9:18 AM

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Saturday, 27-Aug-2011, 1:30 PM | Message # 11
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Quote (Banksi)
Can we please stop meddling with the rules in the middle of a campaign!!!!


It was agreed earlier that we would look at things that were not working and maybe fix them before the start of Phase 2.

Flamers are broken....you cannot shoot a flamer over a friendly troops.

Tom spotted it first time he seen a flamer fired in AT-43 !!!!!

And me and Ian have from long ago, known it was a pants rule. FFS even 40k got it right. angry

Grenades.....i can see you might be worried that the monkeys will be at a disadvantage if they are changed, so i will say no more, as

the campaign seems to be a very serious issue with you. <<<<<<<<<<shrugs>>>>>>>>>>>>>

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BalrogDate: Saturday, 27-Aug-2011, 2:35 PM | Message # 12
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Hey Guys ... From what I understand things, grenades can be used by the whole unit, including fighters who have no line of sight plus the area of effect is increased with each hit and they get the troop grounded effect too? Like I said, their not the most powerful of weapons, Red Bloks damage is 4/1, but the indirect fire weapon type gives it a bonus over standard firearms. There's plenty of reasons to take these pineapples along!!!

As too flamers, I'm still of a mind to leave them as they are ... fancy-mancy 40k templates or not! When the rules where written, I'm pretty sure the AT-43 game designers would have looked at what they can do, thus making them indirect fire weapons, so they can shoot over friends in an arc! AT-43 does need a bit more free thinking as some of the rules are more in tune with gameplay than realism, but I'm OK with that, especially after seeing odd uTube video's showing them at work ... Walts


PS. I agree we should look at rules and do some playtesting first, so that all factions see how those rule changes workout. The Civvy rule effects ALL factions equally, but like players have said, we don't want some factions gaining bonuses while the rest suffer under them!
Message edited by Balrog - Saturday, 27-Aug-2011, 2:42 PM
 
zellakDate: Saturday, 27-Aug-2011, 2:59 PM | Message # 13
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Grenades...crunch the numbers.

A unit of 9 storm golems fires on a steel trooper unit at range 1

3 sonic guns 9 shots at 2 to hit round down 7 hits

3+ to kill ....round down 4 dead

6 nano blasters 6 shots at 3+ to hit with rerolls .....4 hits (round down)

4+ to kill ............2 dead.

Total 6 dead. (out of 8)

option 2 , throw grenades (+45 AP)

9 dice at 4+......round up in grenades favour....... 5 hits

Template is 5 cm radius (10cm diameter) it scatters 4cm due to the 4 misses.

So its going to miss some of the guys in the 8 man unit, probably half.

To hell with it>>>>>>>>>>>>> lets say it only misses 2 of them!!!!

So 6 chances to kill at 4+ .........3 dead. woohoo.

So next turn the unit misses a turn.

Unless of course i didnt wound the medic ....then he saves one of the guys.

only 2 dead then.

So either shoot and kill 6 dead. (and it could have been more)

Or pay +45 AP and only kill 2 or 3. (and that was with a lucky scatter.)

The defence rests its case M'Lud.

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BalrogDate: Saturday, 27-Aug-2011, 4:44 PM | Message # 14
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Objection ur'honor! The Therian Advisor is biased towards his fellow alien invader with their "mightier-than-thou" Sonic the Hedgehog weapons!!!

I hear your number crunching TA, but the games about looking at all the benefits ... Line-of-sight ... what if only one Storm Golem can see? Only he (or is it an IT?!) gets to shoot, whereas ALL the Steel Troopers get to throw grenades if ONE of them can see ... indirect fire bonus! And, any Storm Golems are "grounded" if caught in the blast!

The grenades are good, all-round weapons. I just don't think anyone's really used them effectively or seen the overall benefits.

Used effectively, they could cause all sorts of mayhem to troopers ... based on the luck of the die rolls! ... Stick that in ur crow M'Lord! ... Walts
 
zellakDate: Saturday, 27-Aug-2011, 4:44 PM | Message # 15
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Sorry Banksi....i was provoked , honest. bye

To Walter, prove it.....buy grenades for all your infantry and demonstrate. cool

Talk is cheap.....grenades are not.
Message edited by zellak - Saturday, 27-Aug-2011, 4:47 PM

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Saturday, 27-Aug-2011, 7:00 PM | Message # 16
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Quote (zellak)

Flamers are broken....you cannot shoot a flamer over a friendly troops.

Tom spotted it first time he seen a flamer fired in AT-43 !!!!!


I think the flamer being read wrongly, it's more like a small artillery piece 4cm in diameter rather than a 25cm x 4cm long huge area.

"The Accuracy of the weapon shows the weapon’s maximum
range, as measured from the special weapon bearer.
The template is centered on a fighter. All miniatures located
even partially under the area of effect suffer a damage test."

So you can fire over or through your own troops


Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
zellakDate: Saturday, 27-Aug-2011, 8:50 PM | Message # 17
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Then its not a flamer thrower then ?....its something else ?

DEMON : " When next we meet, i shall tear you limb from limb...there will be no escape. "

Hero: " You bring balloon animals and i'll hire a clown..... we can make it a regular party. "
 
BanksiDate: Saturday, 27-Aug-2011, 11:41 PM | Message # 18
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Quote (zellak)
Then its not a flamer thrower then ?....its something else ?


Yes it would seem to be!!!


Added (27-Aug-2011, 11:41 PM)
---------------------------------------------
Perhaps you should read the Therain book page 30, I think that says it all!! biggrin

It also seem that 25cm is the center of the template according to what I've read

Think of it as firing a big glob of flame
Message edited by Banksi - Sunday, 28-Aug-2011, 0:11 AM

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
BalrogDate: Sunday, 28-Aug-2011, 0:42 AM | Message # 19
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Quote (zellak)
To Walter, prove it.....buy grenades for all your infantry and demonstrate.

Talk is cheap.....grenades are not.

Ahhhh, so the Therians like pineapples then? I'll give you some pineapples then, u souless, Therian puh-takhs! ... or maybe I won't, depending on the advice from Commander Che ... let's wait and see, Therian Advisor 1234!

@Banksi & Zellak & "The Lurkers" ... u know who u are hiding in the corner of the room!:
    Quote (zellak)
    Then its not a flamer thrower then ?....its something else ?

    The Red Blok "flamers" use the phrase "firestorm" in their description, so it depends on what faction description u read. BUT, the term "flamer" is obviously a generic ref to the weapon and how it works, I would think, so in AT-43, a futuristic battlefield, the method of deploying it effectively with hitting troops in the way would surely have been developed by AT-43 battle engineers ... otherwise the game developers would have said so? It's such an obvious weapon for hitting troopers in front of the weapon that the game developers would have said somethng ... shirley!

    ADDED A FEW MINUTES LATER: Here's the UNA description for flamers ...

      The U.N. flamer uses a highly flammable and long burning chemical mixture, sealed in a high-pressure air-tight canister.

      It projects balls of fire at enemy units.

      This weapon uses indirect fire rules.


    ADDED A FEW MORE MINUTES LATER: Here's the Karmen description for flamers ...

      Karman flamers generate a sphere of plasma inside a powerful magnetic field able to contain the unbelievable heat of the plasma.

      A bubble of plasma could char an entire unit: when it is freed from its envelope even the air around it ignites.

      This weapon uses indirect fire and projection rules.

 
BanksiDate: Sunday, 28-Aug-2011, 10:07 AM | Message # 20
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Soooo Flamers are indirect, range 25cm to the center of the template and ignore cover.

They can be fired over or through your own troops.

That seems to sort it all out then Flamers aren't broken any more
biggrin

Of course I know your name, it's your face I can't remember - Parahandy
 
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